Payments and Billing in the EV charging industry

Christian Barra

This is the transcription of the interview with Sandra Stoll, Product Manager of Payments and Billing at Ionity. Ionity builds and operates a High Power Charging network along Europe's highways.

Christian: So before jumping in today's topics, how are we gonna charge our cars in the future?

Christian: Like, how are we gonna pay for that? Like, who's gonna manage the infrastructure.

Sandra Stoll: How are we gonna pay for it? Well, in an ideal world, we're gonna go with the flow. so that means the car charges and pays by itself. so I think that's where it's eventually gonna go, but, there will probably be a couple of years, in the future before that will happen.

Christian: So the idea is to have like, sort of automated in car payments.

Sandra Stoll: Yes. Obviously there, the future technologies already out there, like internet of things. there's an internet of cars. we already have something called plug and charge obviously, where you just plug the car in and depending on who your car provider is, the payments get sorted through that system.

but, obviously, the majority of customers are still utilizing. car charging and car, a car or payment for the charging in a way you pay at a petrol station, which means you, have to provide payment types that your standard customer, that isn't very, into technology can also use. So obviously that's the first step to get mass adoption.

Sandra Stoll: And then in the future, however, technology for the cars evolves, and what the cars and the payment industry come up with, charging will fall in line is at least my opinion.

Christian: I see. so you're in charge of payments and invoicing at, Yonity, which one is the hardest one to deal with?

Sandra Stoll: they both have their challenges, in a different way. if that makes sense. So obviously the payment is the element. The customer, is most concerned with because they are, they don't have any charge left in the car. They wanna do this quickly. obviously payment is part of it. and if there are challenges, with the technology surrounding the payment, they're obviously not happy.

and then the second thing comes in. If there is an error in obviously the amount or how their banks are treating the technology, we've set up, customers complain are and are upset. So that's probably more the customer challenge. And then. The whole element on the invoicing side is around VAT and the challenges we're having in the European countries, we're dealing with the authorities that are obviously requiring, certain elements where we need to ensure the invoicing.

Plus, obviously all the VAT requirements are correct through the chain, and that, has its own complexity.

Christian: That's pretty interesting. So I guess you're trying to build a product that works across the entire Europe. So you need to deal with every local regulation. Okay.

Sandra Stoll: Correct.

Christian: How does it look like from your side?

Sandra Stoll: we are getting there, but obviously, the challenges as a startup industry, we are still, a startup, to a degree, obviously operating pretty much straight away in 24 countries, is a challenge. and, at the moment our offer is the same in every country, which obviously makes a two degree simple, in, you know,in, in a simple way.

but at the same time, it brings with it, the local regulations that we need to understand and then when needed, implement. But at the same time, by having the same offer in every country, we're not necessarily as, adapted to the local market as a local players. so there will be challenges in the future on how we develop our offering specifically in the payment and invoicing.

to enable, for example, I dunno, you are obviously living in Germany. Germany has a gyro card. Other countries don't have a gyro card. you know, it's not enough to potentially just offer your visa and MasterCard. We need to offer something else. We know that, some of the Scandinavian countries have, something called VIPs.

there are other local payment types in the Netherlands. There is, different stuff going on in Poland and so on. And so. so obviously, every nuance, that makes us attractive in a local market is a challenge from an implementation point of view because you suddenly don't just offer one option.

You suddenly offer 24 different things that you all have to manage. And obviously still being a startup. There is a limited amount of workforce that needs to grow as the business and the challenges. How many systems and processes do we add into the mix? still be able to manage the challenges we have.

and I think that's probably one of the biggest, challenges I'm having at the moment of, getting the scalability, right? So we have the right offer for our customers, but at the same time for, to be able to manage that efficiently, well for the customer and, also have the right cost base, cuz obviously the more systems and processes you have, the more costly it will get at some.

Christian: I see. So one of your goal is to leverage like local rates to through like throughout payments through I.

Sandra Stoll: Potentially. Yes. So obviously at the moment, we are mainly focused on keeping up with the market is probably the best way to describe it.if I'm honest, the last six months have seen a massive growth for us. specifically in the payment space as well. So we, implemented, what we call direct payment, so where a customer can pay directly with Yonity.

about a year ago, whilst the volumes were fairly, insignificant for the business around this time last year since, Easter, this year, the volume has grown, significantly. and we are all predicting that it's gonna grow even. over the next, months and years. And that obviously means from getting, let's say over 24 countries, maybe 5,000 transactions a month, we're now it getting closer to a hundred thousand transactions, obviously, that is just gonna carry on growing.

And that also means that we need processes systems, specifically in the payment and invoicing space that are robust and. Both from an unity point of view and from a customer point of view. So the focus needs to be scalability that we're able to handle the volume. And then once we're able to do that, the challenge will be to be attractive enough with what we're offering to the local customers.

So if we're obviously just carry on offering the basics, there will be a lot of, let's say for example, German customers, if they're just, charging was in Germany. Will compare us to, other companies that are really strong in Germany and they say, yeah, well, if I go and charge at whatever the company might be, I can do this, and this, but doesn't offer it.

And then we will, eventually start losing, market share on usability from a payment point of view. So hence that needs to be, addressed and made competitive.

Christian: You mentioned like direct payment. It is like a feature that you have. It's like a wallet inside your application or.

Sandra Stoll: Well, the, I don't know how much you know about the market, but obviously the majority of the volume at the moment comes in through mobility service providers. That means there are third parties that have a contract with Yonity and they offer, either a charge card, so called RFID tag, or they offer their own app.

So customer could utilize, let's say in, in, in Germany as an example, E N B w offers. with that app, a customer can charge at, I, they can charge at the Munich local stations. They could charge at the Berlin local stations. They can use eon, they can use shell, they can use whatever. obviously BMW has a contract with, so that, that is the majority of the volume.

The direct is where a customer, just charges with I, so they can utilize either our. or they can utilize, a payment website, which is a QR code at the charges they can scan, so they don't need to sign up for the app. they just do one off payment, obviously that has its challenges as well. because, you need a slightly tech savvy, customer.

So you need somebody who has a mobile phone with them. They need to be able to scan a QR code or, download an app and then utilize, you know, the credit cards that they put either in the payment website or in the app, to then start the. If they don't have this RFID card. and where the industry is going now with regards to regulation is that, it will become mandatory at the moment, only in Germany as of next year that every new charger has a payment terminal integrated.

and then we know that the EU is currently looking at a similar regulation. but that hasn't been, decided yet, but it will come at some point in 2020. That, for all EU countries, the same requirement will be there. So obviously one of my projects is to meet regulation and we're looking at how we integrate payment terminals into the charges.

and that is an additional, obviously payment type direct payment, that we have. So that will only be customers that will pay directly with I. So for example, an BMW customer, wouldn't be able to utilize that with the rates they're getting. So it would be, I.

Christian: So a charging station will become like a vending machine. And then you're gonna top your phone, basically. You're gonna charge your car.

Sandra Stoll: you can tap your phone or you can hold your card against it. or it, it needs pin, pin entry as well. So you can put it in. and, the only thing we are not able to do, is obviously cash payments. I don't think we will get anywhere near that.but, considering, as I mentioned at the beginning, the volumes are increasing.

We are having, increased customer bases that are new to, EVs. So, you have your, if I describe it, you know,your standard personnel, so it's not the early adopter. So it's your elderly couple that, you know, decided the last car they get is now an EV for their Sunday drives you have families.

EVs, et cetera, cuz they're more environment mentally conscious. So, you, we obviously need to offer payments, that, anybody can utilize. and obviously there is still in some countries in affinity against, how should I say, utilizing apps utilize or giving customer data out. So hence, they need to have an ability to pay in a standardized way that is not an app.

Christian: I see. I guess that the goal is to really reduce the friction on the payment side. That should be as easy as.

Sandra Stoll: it is. Yes. it needs to be as easy as possible cuz we shouldn't. How should I say prevent customers from charging their car? Because the way the payment is working is awkward. Obviously there are a lot of, differences compared to getting, petrol for your car. So, because of the technology involved.

Sandra Stoll: Sowhat I'm seeing is that it's not necessarily always the payments fault if it's not working, but we obviously interact, between the car, the charger and the app at the moment. so there's three technology elements involved and any three of them could have, a problem. and as we are, in an industry where we only know the final.

after the service has been delivered, we need a mechanism to check a customer and allow a customer to start a charge. Otherwise, obviously I will not get the money, from those customers. And that is in detriment, to us because we will have no means of actually, you know, surviving and making money.

Sandra Stoll: So, the challenge is the customer can't start, the EV charge without having the, payment card author. That's the same in the app, as it will be for a payment terminal, you know, we need to get it authorized. But as I said, there are challenges in it. So obviously if the payment card goes through, then the customer can start in theory the charge, but it's not as simple as, you know, just press the hose and the petrol comes out.there are various it systems involved that need to talk to each other. And, obviously the car could have a timeout, or whatever, challenges doesn't recognize that it's allowed to charge the charger could have problem. so there's a lot of technology obviously involved in getting, you know, from a authorized payment to charging your car and, that still needs, at least in my opinion, quite a bit of improvement, but working on it, very heavily, to make that customer experience better.

but it always, unfortunately in a way starts, was a payment. And, that's how customers see it, that the payment isn't working.

Christian: Yeah, I totally understand. Can be like when you try to buy something that it doesn't work. The first thing that you do is either close the page or move to the next

Sandra Stoll: Yeah, exactly.

Christian: are you also working or focusing on the post, like on a post paid solution, like with subscription or like payment at

Sandra Stoll: Yes, we have subscriptions. so obviously we offer that to our mobility service provider.and we have a direct, I subscription as well. Obviously that one only works, with I charges, at the moment that is only available through the app. and that has its own challenges. If I'm perfectly honest, with regards to monthly payments, that is on my roadmap, but obviously that has slightly different challenges because you have to credit check. if you give them, you know,a credit limit for X amount of euros, for example, for months before we then get the money. the challenge again is 24 countries because, at the moment we don't want to just offer it for example, in Germany. and then the rest of, our customers will not be able to get it, hence, you know, integrating credit check companies in 24 countries and finding service providers to do that is a huge under.

Sandra Stoll: so, I still need to work out how, and when we do that, but at the moment, my tech stack has more elements on it to ensure scalability and a smooth, payment, for the credit card types, than, allowing invoices per month. If I'm honest,

Christian: It's really interesting. You mentioned the credit card, like the credit check, because I was checking this the other day, like to. A, like a solution provider in Europe to do credit check on companies. And it's really hard to find someone that could provide a solution across, I don't know, 24 countries.

I thought, okay, I'm just gonna integrate with an API. It's gonna be super simple, but no, that's not the case.

Sandra Stoll: no, it is not. No. There are a lot of nuances where again, it comes down to what each country is doing, what the regulation is. Some countries like the UK are a lot more stringent, than others. depending on what providers are available, it can get very complicated or simpler. but, I used to work in this space in my previous job, and that was just in the UK.

Sandra Stoll: And I knowhow difficult it is, to do the whole credit check portfolio on customers. Doing that times 24 is a huge undertaking.

Christian: Yeah, I totally understand that. you mentioned that you're also like providing also billing cap capabilities inside your platform. I guess also having that is not easy. And like when you're scaling up in 24 different countries, like, can you tell us a little bit more about, how are you doing billing and invoicing together?

Sandra Stoll: obviously we, as I said, we authorized the, the payment type, whether or not that comes in from a mobility service provider or from a direct customer. and then we have, various endpoints that, are set up. So we obviously have to recognize what tariff this customer is on. so, you know, for example, our standard rate at the moment for direct customer is 79 Euro cents per kilowatt.that, is recognized through the medium he comes in. and then we, essentially count how many kilo hours the customer charges. And at the end, there is a rating engine, that then, rates the full charge. and then there's a final amount, depending on what country the charger is in what the VAT rules are for a direct customer or, a B2B.everything gets rated and then we utilize, this information to then either, debit the customer's credit card or, in the case of our B2B suppliers, we then collect all that information and do a monthly invoice. but there, there is a lot of, complex logic in there. Obviously again, the 24 countries, it depends on the tariffs we're using, and the pricing models we're offering.

Sandra Stoll: If there are any discount elements in there. So there's. an array of complexity in there, obviously. And the challenge of the invoicing system and the payment system is to, ensure we get the data at the right time, into the right system to then make sure everything works as smoothly as we can.

Christian: I mean, you mentioned so many components in like 30 seconds. Like I think I lost a few of them, like rating engine, then yeah, VAT, and then you have a couple of other things rated to B2B. So I guess it has to be really complex.

Sandra Stoll: Yeah,it is really complex. Yeah. we're doing that in house. and obviously have a great it team, that is able to, you know, adjust based, based on market demands, et cetera. and then the challenge for me is, we are still using a lot of third party providers in the obviously payment space.

Sandra Stoll: We the invoicing space as well. And, we need to ensure that the systems are integrated correctly. They talk to each other at the right speed with the right, data, and the correct data. And, then make sure that, there is in a way, no detriment to the customer, no detriment to either.

Christian: How is it going with the integration? Because from my perspective, when you try to integrate, especially on the voice side, different providers could be pretty hard because maybe they have a different models or they work specifically in a country. Then they have a different way of doing this. It's also the same on your side that you're having a different experience.

it is, obviously, we integrated, one provider last year when we, established the.that took a lot longer than I think anybody anticipated again because of the complexity of the 24 countries testing in itself, whether it's at I, or at our service providers is very complicated. And,anything we integrate is always times 24. but, I think we, at least with a sales provider, we have at the moment we found a good way of, working with them, ensuring we all understand the complexities of our, model. and it's been adjusted to what needs,

Christian: Because you mentioned you also have a nows provide, like you, you have a N nows team building this, like is the idea to. For wrapping up data implementation. And then for the, like, for their inspection of the company where there's gonna be in Europe, in another country, leverage your internal team, or like use an external provider as a way to speed up your, like your expansion, for example, or.

it's both. actually, so, I think initially we started off with a full provider, for everything. we're at a phase now where we are slowly pulling everything, in.and as I said, the elements that are unique to Yonity, so I mentioned the rating engine and things like this, that is definitely, elements that Yonity wants to.the payment service providers, we will have to have third parties because does not have a banking license and there we will not get a banking license. and from an invoicing point of view, I think for the, the stage we're at the moment, that is definitely the right, approach. We have utilizing expertise of external companies, and then we have to see how the market and the business is developing over the next couple.

Christian: Like, let's say that there is another company now trying to build like, like specific billing and voicing solution for, I dunno, their marketplace, or it could be a, I dunno, like high volume business. Like, is there any suggestion that. You would probably share with their product manager about like, we need to build this system.

Christian: And like, we don't find any kind of provider outside. We have this sort of requirements. Like what are the things they, they shouldn't overlook? What are the things they should look for?

Sandra Stoll: well, if you're looking at the invoicing, element, I think the challenge is finding a way of, well, a flexible system that can, address changes fairly simply, and not, you know, having a complicated code behind it. that is very difficult to. Obviously the challenge we're having with our 24 country set up.I'm not sure how often that does happen. you again, need the flexibility with language logic, and the whole VAT logic. obviously the challenge is, do you have your own SAP system that can take all the, accounting information as.that was one, one of the challenges or is still one of the challenges we're having.

while Whil we're developing is ensuring the accounting, the bookkeeping, the reconciliation of payments with, money that's actually coming in from the payment service providers into our bank accounts. there's an awful lot of work that needs to happen that, obvious. we need to do as a company.

So we're, auditable as well. Our books are in order. we can show that we've had X number of orders in that's, how they went through the system. That's what we got, et cetera. And obviously if you are a very small company, that is a huge process to set up specifically, if you are dealing with direct customers.

So I mentioned at the beginning, we started off with maybe a thousand orders a month. we're getting closer to a hundred thousand so obvious. reconciling a hundred thousand orders every month. if you have one person working in finance is not feasible, so those are the considerations you need to have.

and why probably, if you start up as a very small business, you probably cannot do that by yourself. If you are going intothe B2C space.

Christian: Yeah, I guess it makes a lot of sense. Like, spreadsheet will. Get you that

Sandra Stoll: No, not.can you tell us a little bit more about your current? I don't know how to call it like finance tech stock or, oh, you're on all this system together. you mentioned SAP, so I guess that's one of the things you integrate with.

yes, obviously we are using a service provider, and, they feed all the information into their SAP. So ultimately we have, as I mentioned earlier, we have our own rating engine and billing engines where we generate, the final amount a customer needs to pay. that information then gets passed onto the payment service providers or the, invoicing provider, through APIs.

and then obviously the payment service provider is the one that, pulls the money from, the customers. they obviously have a, you know, a compliant system process, that we follow. So we, for example, don't hold any credit card information that all sits with the payment service providers, cuz we're not supposed to do.and then from a, invoicing point of view, we have a process set up that as soon as the payment, was authorized by the payment service provider, our invoice provider creates an invoice. We then send that invoice to the customer, on email. but that is only feasible through our app process where we know the customer.

Sandra Stoll: If we don't know the customer, then obviously there's no.and all the invoice data gets, reconciled. So, our service provider is, checking that the money has come in into our bank accounts, creates, daily and monthly reports. and at the same time they're sending all of that information back through another API, into our internal SAP system for our accounting team to then,yeah, do the internal reconciliation.

Christian: I see. So your system like your, he now system sits at the top of, let's say the offer, the API offers of the other service provider.

Christian: Okay. That's pretty interesting.

Christian: And now that, I mean, you mentioned that 1000, like, transaction per month. guess you have a goal to probably scale it also because of function of the industry. So I guess it's gonna be tenfold or 20 fold for the next couple of years.

Sandra Stoll: Probably, I mean, I think we're all, trying to forecast as much as we can, but, if I'm honest, the numbers are changing on a monthly basis. Sowhat we sought, was the right forecast or the right split, is already surpassing everything, pretty quickly. So if you, I did some forecasting the other day, probably had numbers from my internal, business team.

Sandra Stoll: Let's say four weeks ago, I think they're already, not quite right again, so that the industry's growing so fast and rapidly that, you know, we continuously need to adjust numbers and check if everything isstill in order.

Christian: Are you currently focusing only on Europe or you think also to expand in the us?

we're focusing only on Europe at the I guess you have, let's call them like a limited set of cross border challenge.

Sandra Stoll: If you're talking us yes, but obviously, the whole of Europe has its own challenges, in, in itself, you know, at the moment we don't have any service providers that are outside of Europe, but you still have the challenge, not everybody's in the European union. So they're, you know, different regulations and things that, that we need to look.the whole bank account, management currency management is still a challenge, even in Europe because not everybody trades in euros. hence, that, that meets careful management. As I mentioned earlier, VAT logic, different countries have different rules, which becomes difficult. The moment we integrate.

because they always want the relevant VAT for the country they're charging in. But then the company itself, as an example, company is in Germany. butthe employee charges in Poland, then there's different VAT rules. It suddenly gets extremely complicated that we have everything right. So there are still more than enough challenges that we need to resolve.


Christian: Yeah, it sounds as complex, even more complex than eCommerce where, so the location of the user doing that transaction is the location you need to consider for the VAT.

Sandra Stoll: yeah, that it's the same we have, but, there is something, at least in, in Germany and, as far as I remember Austria, Switzerland fall into that as. is, kind of a regulation of reselling of energy, which has a different VAT treatment. So for example, if, we have an BMW customer utilizing the app and they would have a company, invoice.

Sandra Stoll: So let's say they, they say I'm BMW customer X, Y. I have to treat them differently in the VAT than, if it's, let's say you who have nothing to do with electricity. and it's obviously ensuring that if we have invoices that are being utilized in tax reporting, that those have the right VAT treatment.

Sandra Stoll: And, it's a big mine field. If I'm honest. we haven't tackled a hundred percent.

Christian: Well, it was super interesting. I like, I mean, from the outside, it looks a lot, there is a lot of fragmentation I would say, and really hard to understand how this system really works also because the air regulation is like changing every day. They have new things and I mean, I totally understand Europe is trying to do their best to, you know, smooth the process and reduce the friction.

Christian: Charging your car everywhere in Europe. So it was, yeah, it was, it was super insightful. I would say it's time to wrap up Sandra. So I'm just gonna ask you a few question, just to close the interview. the first one is, what is the best piece of career advice that you have received?

Sandra Stoll: I actually haven't received career advice. It was probably more that I'm giving career advice to a lot of, my working students, et cetera, which is basically, you know, stay open, learn as much as you can. And, Don't just focus on one industry, cause I found at least in my career, in a way industry hopping, gives you a bit of, flexibility and new insights into how to approach.

Sandra Stoll: For example, if you come out of a service industry specifically around it, a lot of things are being approached differently than if you come out of a manufacturing background and having a bit of a mix of both. I find quite. usefuland, you know, just stay open minded, try different things and, try and develop your career.

that's a really good advice. So next one, what book would you recommend to our audience?

I did read one book, as part of my role as a product owner, which still stuck with me, which is called the goal, which is about, eliminating bottle.even though it's one of those, how should say agile books, but it's written as a really nice story. And, it was really good read where you can learn a lot of things that apply to your private life, as well as to business

Christian: okay. what's your main passion outside of work?

Sandra Stoll: volleyball. I coach a lot of volleyball and, yeah. Have had a lot of children in the past 20 years that, have gone through my co. And I still enjoy it. And, it's very rewarding seeing them thrive and love the sport. I love,

Christian: you've been like a coach for a long time. Right?

yeah, I started coaching when I was 16 and, I was coaching the national squads in Wales. so obviously I left that behind, but last week I did training camp in Munich, was about 13, nine to 12 year olds, in 34 degree heat at the beach courts. So, but they all loved it. Most of them wanna carry on playing, which there any podcast that you would like to share with the audience about payments or product?

I gotta have a confession to make. I have never listened to a podcast. I'm a reader. So I tend to read and, if I do listen to anything, it's either music or some audio books, but, I haven't quite found the time for podcast yet.

Christian: It makes sense. And the last question is there anything you're learning right now? I mean, anything in particular?

Sandra Stoll: I think the main thing that I find quite interesting at the moment is, the speed of the industry and how to manage your business, in line with it. So to ensure that we grow in a sustainable, scalable and secure way. and, that is something I haven't experienced yet, in the companies I've worked before.

And I find this very interesting, but is also extremely challenging. and yeah, there's a lot to learn as a business, but also personally it, yeah. Makes me grow and see things differently. Again,

Christian: I see it's like every month or every three months, the world looked like different from the inside.

Sandra Stoll: it does. Yeah. And obviously, ensuring that you stay on top of it. I think that's been, the challenge in the last, probably three months. I've had a lot of project work, and you get immersed in deadlines, project work, and sometimes you lose the bigger picture. and now, you know, realizing you should have done something a lot earlier is, difficult.

Sandra Stoll: But again, as I said, you learn, so that's something that will not happen again. And, you approach your work differently and you need to look at it from a way more strategic point. then it's just your project work, you know, it's important that we set up the business for success, all of us in Yonity.

and, in order to do that, you need to look outside your box in a way, you know, not just do your projects or what you're supposed to do, but you need to do a lot more planning. long-term planning a lot earlier and faster than probably a lot of us are used to cuz the industry might just overrun us.

if we're not, you know, on top of.

Christian: I guess you mentioning this because your previous experience was at Barclays, right?

Sandra Stoll: it was, yeah, obviously it's a big corporate, it, it moves in a slightly different pace. and you know, as I said, being in the mobility industry now with this exceptional growth, plus a startup, that mix is very interesting at the moment. And, yeah, that there's so much movement, that, as I said, the way you work, you just have to adapt.

even in the payment space, you know, when I started last year, I was like, oh, we'll never do NFC payments. You know, Al card is out, you know, we have to go back, you know, we have to go into the virtual cards and all of that. And now regulation comes in. We have to go to that. And at the same time you realize, by working with the customers and seeing how the market is develop.

Sandra Stoll: The market isn't ready for the virtual stuff. It has to take the step back to go. I keep on calling it.the charging experience needs to be the same as getting petrol. if we establish that, then we can grow into the new space. But unless we establish that and we have mass adoption, we haven't done our job.

Sandra Stoll: Right. And, I think it's for a lot of people to also see. The mobile phone as a payment isn't enough anymore. You know, we need to enable every customer, no matter who's turning up to charge and that's not saying, oh, by the way, I don't care. If you don't have a mobile phone, you can't use it. We have to offer them what they want.

Sandra Stoll: And that's a mindset change that, that only comes in by, you know,seeing how the industry's developing and what's happening there.

Christian: So always putting the customer first and whatever the rail he or she likes.

Sandra Stoll: At the end of the day without customers, we don't have a business. So, if we don't give the customer what they want, they're not coming back to us, we're losing them. So we also need to change our own thinking, and go in line with what the customers actually want.

Christian: Again, that was,was a great answer. Sandra was a pleasure to have you here. so if people want to find more about unity, they can share the website, And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way.

Sandra Stoll: Either LinkedIn, obviously Sandra stole and I normally should find me or, you can send me an email, which would be Sandra

Christian: Okay. Cool. Sandra, thank you for joining me today. it was pleasure and wishing you the best.

Sandra Stoll: Thank you very much. Enjoyed it as well.

You can listen to the podcast here.